Transparency in the Tea Industry?

Ah, thanks. I admit I don’t follow these issues in wine per se, but I was at least under the impression that it was better regulated. I had no idea China provided 40% of imported wine. I mean, China? Who buys wine from China? That’s an honest question, not snark.

What I meant is that 40% of the imported wine in China itself would be counterfeit.

That’s good to know, thanks.

Oops. I deleted my reply since I missed the “super-high-end”.

It was still helpful, so I’m glad I saw it!

Actually, the taste of the tea is the most important thing about, in my opinion.

I can see your sentiment, but I truly do not think they had any intention to undercut their competitors, and only did what they did in the best interest of us consumers who they believed where being lied to.

Ultimately it’s only the vendors themselves know what their true intentions were, but I personally cannot believe this was mere competition bashing.

I’m also extremely turned off by the actions of all vendors involved but since I don’t shop from them currently, my business is hardly a loss. Personally, it is tricky as I believe that accurate information should be brought to light and vendors are often in the best position to do so. That said, I didn’t like the way things were worded or handled so I will keep my business elsewhere. I’m in the minority there though and that’s okay too.

I really don’t care what the companies’ motivations were. I’m just glad to be warned before I got scammed, but I seem to be in the minority as well. I was also glad to get a lot of tips (privately) about where I could get teas I liked — but only knew how to get at steeply marked up prices — at lower cost. All in all, it seems sort of silly to me that we can’t talk about these things openly on here. But it was helpful to me in a practical sense no matter what the whistleblowers’ intentions.

We can and do talk about these things. But it’s not always what is said, it’s how it was said.

For me, it was all in how it was said and handled. Very unprofessional all around.

I have the utmost respect for the people that I’ve interacted with for a while in this specific post and its IMPORTANT to me that is recognized first. I’ve learned a lot and appreciated y’alls posts very much. And its totally your prerogative to vote with your dollars.

However, neither Scott nor Paul brought that thread to Steepster. It was on reddit which is a MUCH different environment and at the beginning was a simple question, “does anybody believe this?” It was a reasonable question. And the responses were immediate and quite direct, and mainly because many of the people on that reddit thread have seen things (documented in the thread) before where they believe Verdant was less than, oh let’s use “transparent” for lack of a better word.

VERY few people that we interact with here on Steepster have the knowledge to call something like that out. Whether you think it’s inappropriate for another vendor to do that or not – the fact remains – Scott was one of the few who could do so with authority.

Was there some snark and joking around on that reddit thread? Absolutely. Was it an uncommon tone for reddit? Nope. reddit ain’t Steepster. Scott waited a while before responding on here and what he said was direct and he was able to back it up.

I will say this though. I feel like Verdant has been indirectly snarking at other vendors for quite some time with their “transparency in the tea industry” posts. I have felt for a while now that some of those things were directed at companies like Yunnan Sourcing without them coming out and saying “Yunnan Sourcing.”

I am a direct person. I appreciate someone being direct rather than slyly insinuating. Is one any more unprofessional than the other? I feel badly for all of us. It’s kind of sucky all the way around here now.

At the end of the day, I would have much less respect for Scott had he remained quiet. And I agree that we drink tea for the taste. But people buy tea for all sorts of reasons and if one of those reasons is how old the trees are and that matters to them and was misrepresented – that may not seem inappropriate to you. But the reddit thread didn’t seem inappropriate to me. So I suppose its one of those “your mileage may vary” deals.

I quit buying from Verdant quite a while ago for other reasons. I will continue to buy from Yunnan Sourcing and White2.

I want to say again – Terri, you are one of the people on Steepster that I deeply admire and that I like very much. Same with Marzi and this isn’t directed at y’all personally – I just disagree.

^This. Couldn’t have said it better myself!

Agree with you, MzPriss, wonderfully said!

My point was – and still is – the same: It has been said, do we have to keep repeating it? That has gotten twisted into a lot of interpretations that I never said.

We have to remember that a ‘new’ person brought this from Reddit. I wasn’t any of the vendors that replied to it. That new person is welcome here but this thread was trolled a bit too.

MzPriss, I haven’t read Verdant’s blog posts about transparency, but I was under the impression that they were more about the very real ethical issues in mass production of tea for multinational corporations, not “indirectly snarking at […] companies like Yunnan Sourcing”.

Well said MzPriss. Well said.

@adagio breeze – some of it is that way – they talk about industry practices. But there is a LOT of discussion about how you can’t be sure what you’re buying unless you buy from companies that ONLY deal with “small family farmers.” It’s interesting – if somewhat tedious reading.

@MsPriss: you said that far better than I could! I completely agree.

@Marzipan: It keeps getting repeated due to a certain troll. I think people’s ire would be better directed there and perhaps to the lack of Steepster moderation.

where is this “hatefulness” you speak of? i see none.

I don’t understand it either. I read the reddit thread and saw nothing objectionable or unprofessional. I truly appreciate your standing up for the truth. I would far rather know the reality than live in a fantasy. Thank you again.

Scott, believe me, a NET majority of us supports you. And with good reasons. In my book, there are no wrong doing from you and I appreciate the fact that you won’t apologize for anything. Thank you for what you do. Just before I read your post now, someone from another country asked me where they can buy puerh from a reliable source. I told them you give the tea industry a good name. That’s how I truly feel, and that’s why I will be a client for life.

I don’t get it either. I think you’re taking the brunt of the reaction against one particular troll in these threads who seems somehow linked to Misty Peaks Tea — and has a weird obsession with Verdant to the exclusion of any other potentially shady companies.

I’m glad you spoke up because that made me speak up, and that led to a bunch of private messages letting me know where I can get fairly priced tea from responsible companies. People seem scared to do that on here openly, which makes no sense. Is Steepster for consumers, or is it for vendors? If the latter, then it’s not a very useful tool for new consumers looking for information.

As a Southerner well-versed in upper middle-class parlor manners, welp… I drink tea not because I think it has the magical ability to bring about world peace or something. I just like the taste, and I appreciate straight-shooting in business as anywhere else. I also think telling the truth is more important than keeping up appearances, or adhering to certain arbitrary standards of what is or is not acceptable to say in public.

I’d really like to see a quote from something “unprofessional” that would have reached “unimagined levels of hatefulness” from either Scott or Paul. Unimagined levels of hatefulness, is that a joke?

There’s only one vendor here that has been unprofessional, and it’s Verdant, that came here and lied in the face of everyone while they were given an opportunity to make it right.

Scott I hope you keep pointing out bandits. Just cause a very few members didn’t like hearing the truth doesn’t mean that the rest of members here didn’t appreciate your posts. Keep up the good work. I for one really appreciate what you’ve done here and the time you invested.

I don’t understand. Are we High Tea Society? We can only whisper and gossip. I really appreciate all the transparency questions raised. I didn’t find anything horrible on Reddit or here ( except Monkey Troll, but he /she just a lonely clown ). Nobody takes him/her seriously.
Puerh is my main tea I purchase and drink multiple times a day. I want to trust the seller I buy from. I don’t need fairy tales of Ancient tree teas for dirt cheap. I also don’t need teas claiming I’ll become a super model in a short period of time.

I appreciate your passion and desire to point out what you see to be wrong, and hope you continue to do it. To provide feedback that I hope will be helpful, there were some comments made by you and two dog on reddit that were less than classy that I have to admit I had to get over. You could definitely have gotten your message across without the juvenile tone, and you would have had even more credibility than you already do. For me, it wasn’t anger but the childish snark that made me uncomfortable and unable to immediately take you seriously. It undermined your message. I’ll go find them and post them so you’re not left wondering.

I for one appreciate you pointing out what Verdant was doing. Verdant not being a store I usually buy from I had no idea what they were up to. For every person who says they now won’t buy from you because you point out Verdant’s lies I bet there are three new customers.

I’m not going to repeat what everyone above me just said, but I agree and just want to add this: don’t you dare keep your mouth shut Scott Wilson! Don’t let the bullshitters and the liars win. You are one of a handful of tea vendors I trust, and I know I’m not alone. We appreciate you and your honesty.

Unfortunately, your post has made me rethink my plans should I win the lottery, which was to pay you, TwoDog, or Glen to take me with you to Yunnan, which now sounds like a great place to get shanked. So uhm, I’ll just stay here and drink your tea. ;-)

I toss in my support and thank you for what you did. I want vendors I can trust especially when the tea has a price point like puerh can.

I too support your actions.

Maybe things could’ve been worded more carefully, maybe not. Personally I think lying to your customers about your wares is the bigger offense by far, and I don’t see any fault in what you did, so thank you!

Your message was strong and well put with the exception of the following, which are either personal attacks, which don’t make your argument any stronger, or coarse comments, which wouldn’t be an issue for me at all if you weren’t a vendor. I think there is a place for being aware that you are a public person. Hopefully this is helpful. Thank you again for standing up for what is right and speaking out.
*
haha!
“We were at the tea house… you were in the pot… you smelled amazing… I got chills down my back when my lips touched you. Everytime I experience this memory I am transported to a magical realm. But now I can’t find you…”
-Sad in Vancouver

And what a weak response from Duckler. I wonder if he believe’s all the crap that he spouts? Or does his brain just have an off switch that prevents him from feeling shame?
I don’t think there is a usual mark up for tea… if I had to finger a tea seller with a crazy mark up one of them would be Verdant. The pot calling the kettle black.
I used to enjoy snickering at their site, but this latest chapter is absurd.

Ooohh linens… dirty linens? Like panties?!?!
But seriously… maybe they all just get really high and sit around and rattle off the first thing that comes into their head?

I echo Zennenn’s comment – I highly doubt you’re totally incapable of pointing out another tea company’s questionable ethics without coming across as petty and insulting. People who take issue with your delivery don’t want to be left in the dark; they just want you to not sound like an asshat. You may be the most ethical tea seller in the world, but after reading that thread where you made it sound like anyone who didn’t know the upper age limit of harvestable tea plants was an idiot and compared flavor notes to women’s underwear (so gross, amirite?!) it made me think twice about giving you my business.

I have spoken little, for I decided to stand back and see what I can learn. Personally, I agree with you and your methods. I’m grateful for this information, and I plan to use it in the future.

I also highly support your actions! As a vendor dedicated to being as completely honest as possible, it’s frustrating to see the industry muddled with so much deception. While there will always be that aspect in the tea industry and every other industry out there, I believe the first step towards reducing the amount of lies is to educate the consumers. If they are informed, then the amount of money spent on those who lie will be reduced, thus decreasing the demand for things like:

Shou pu-erh aged in bags spun from pure unicorn hair.
Raw pu-erh imported from the dark side of the moon.
Black tea processed by a 283 year old cave-dwelling monk from the dangerous rocky clifftops of the mystical Wuyi Mountains.

It’s really just tea. If the tea is good it will sell. I don’t understand why it has to be complicated so much.

I stand with Scott and TwoDog.

Okay, yes, I don’t like the women’s underwear thing, but considering how woman-hating Reddit is most of the time, I barely noticed it. It’s not enough to make me rethink my tea-buying, in any case.

As a company owner, I have to realize that my image in my industry is impacted by anything I post, even if that post is in the “character” of the board I happen to be posting on.

^ Yup.

One thing, though, since we’re all talking about our jobs… As a partly-online writer who has gotten at least a few dozen serious death threats, I can’t overstate how… Well, in the absence of death threats, racial slurs, sexist rants, gay-bashing, etc. I’d say “hatefulness” is a bit rich. At worst, I saw mild snark. SERIOUSLY mild. I’m not sure why mild snark is outside the realm of acceptable behavior for a business owner. In the circles I travel in my work, I come against quite a lot of hate, and I’m happy to call it out when I see it. That’s the reason I’ve received the death threats. Criticism, up to an including snark, may turn you off, but it’s a far cry from hate.

(Edit: I’m referring to everyone but the troll at this point. I do think the repeated use of the word “sissy” comes across as more than a little anti-gay.)

fwiw, I didn’t think there was anything I’d call hatefulness. But just because they didn’t say anything vile doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t influence what I think of them.

@adagio: One or two other people used the word hatefulness, not you. I wasn’t responding directly to you.

man. there are some whiney people on here.

“how dare you tell me that a company is telling me lies about the product i am buying!” wtf is that? are you people serious?

just because we drink tea doesnt mean we are sissy push-overs.

high fives to you Scott.

peace

Your context doesn’t change anything – YOU are the one who took it to “omg dirty panties lulz!”

And no, I don’t want to have to create an account on another site that I have ethical issues with in order to respond in a way you find acceptable.

@adagio breeze – I didn’t realize that was so offensive. I am wondering how Duckler got the taste of linens from tea? Am I wrong in assuming he was referring to panties? What’s unethical about reddit?

Linens (scent-wise) tends to refer to clean clothing, freshly washed clothing, crisp new shirt or, hanging something outside to dry. Not knowing the complete context, I imagine they were trying to evoke a feeling that the tea tastes “fresh”, “clean” or “new”.

What TiS said. At this point, Scott, I have to assume you’re being deliberately thick.

I notice you’re using various forms of the word “offend”, which in contemporary parlance seems to suggest irrational and baseless emotional response, especially among people who make up Reddit’s user base.

@Scott I am VERY disappointed in your snarky and juvenile comments.

A simple gesture like a complimentary jian of Wa Long would go a long way towards healing our relationship, I’m sure many others feel the same way.

yes, Scott has to apologize, at least 1800 times :D

oh no. so many tears i could brew a pot of oolong. how about a separate section in this forum for people who dont get butt hurt?

Maybe being robbed by a polite thief is a more agreeable experience for the very rich, but those of us who don’t have endless resources appreciated the information that Scott provided.

Good point! I guess when you have enough money, you don’t mind people taking it from you.

Something I forgot to add and a point that I wanted to make sure Scott’s critics got is…. He’s here… reading and responding to your criticism and point of views. He’s here quite honestly, being vulnerable to your outspoken views and he has no problem to admitting he was snarky and standing by his comments to both customers and non-customers alike. While Verdant has avoided it for all this time, yet they have had time to respond to some emails from customers.

I can’t speak for everyone but, I appreciate him being frank and honest. I understand as a business owner (and I had a small business for a bit too), it is frustrating to see people in your trade doing things that you feel are unacceptable. I commend him for speaking up, it must have been difficult. I know very little about tea so, so I am glad I know now. Regardless, if Verdant knew or didn’t know the trees true age, (assuming that the trees are not the age as marketed), they knowing/unknowingly deceived their client and, to put it nicely, failed to properly understand their own products.

However, I think on the flip side, being crude/rude as a business owner (regardless of context, forum, etc), is not acceptable either. I just started on this discussion board and since this topic came up constantly, I looked up all the tea venders because I didn’t know any. Yunnan Sourcing uses a very different tone on Facebook, Twitter, website, and I even watched someone of his Youtube. He was polite, as one would expect out of a business owner. I think this is where people are harping him. I don’t think they have an issue with his message, but the execution. I don’t think being blunt is wrong, however, being crude and mocking others is.

JC, I agree with you. The topic switched to Scott’s “rude” replies instead of main issue: Verdant lied to their customers, didn’t admit it and some of Steepsterites think its OK. It’s easy to attack Scott cuz here is here, on this forum. Meanwhile Verdant is hiding. Why? Because they have nothing to say in their defense.

@Tea In Spoons – I was mocking Verdant and nobody else. I was mocking them because I disgusted with their claims. This is literally the first time in 12 years of doing business I have spoken out and probably the last. It’s been a huge emotional rollercoaster for me to participate on here and frankly kind of disappointing given people are nitpicking me. In the previous 12 years of doing business I have not even posted a picture of myself online whatsoever because I wanted people to judge my business based solely upon the quality of the teas and customer service provided. The only thing that changed is that in the last year I began to express myself as a person that wanted to share his experiences and knowledge. Being an expert in the field, fluent in Chinese, living and breathing Pu-erh, and living in Yunnan for the majority of my adult life has made me a very strong willed person. You can say I am crude and i accept that. I have mocked Verdant and I’ve stated my reasons both on Reddit and here. .If anyone here is ever in Kunming or Bend Oregon (depending on which place I am at the time). I would welcome you to come and drink tea with me and discover first hand who I am. I just hope you don’t mind a big slobbery dog and really strong tea!

Again, I agree with what Tea In Spoons said. I don’t understand why some people here seem to think it’s not possible to appreciate the act while taking issue with how he conducted himself. For what it’s worth, this whole thing has lowered my opinion of YS, White2Tea, AND Verdant.

@JC Thanks for reminding people I am also a person with feelings. It takes alot out of me to participate in all this.

and to Everyone that has supported me… thank you. I am done with this thread, got to get back to work. Falling behind on my work!

Scott, I’m sorry this has been hard for you, but you have to accept that how you conduct yourself affects your business. That’s how it is for everyone. And, much like people defending the Reddit thread, I think the criticism people directed toward you was very mild, and would have been handled more gracefully if you resolved to modify your tone on public forums instead of giving us the “that’s just who I am” cop-out.

@Scott, no prob. People forget that you took the time to respond to a lot of this, while the company in questions hasn’t. Get back to work, if verdant doesn’t have to reply I don’t see why you should.

@adagio breeze I don’t disagree with you, you can take issue with anything you choose as well as lowering your opinion of all three vendors if you again choose to. But putting a two vendors at the same ‘lowered opinion’ for speaking out ‘snarkily’ about a company that has been in the middle of several possibly unethical business practices and lack of communication is a bit simplistic. However, I just hope you speak with your wallet as others should.

Please if you are going to say the tea taste fine, keep in mind that the advertised tea didn’t say ‘it tastes fine, ok or good’ it was advertised as coming from very specific age range of the trees and you are not getting what was advertised, I’m glad you didn’t get crap tea, but that is still not an excuse.

I’m also done with this thread, I did get a few new steepster friends which is a positive thing. As I said before, I hope that even though you disagree with me, you see the possibility for still sharing this passion. If not, there are others here that will. Cheers.

@adagio breeze – I see your point but I think my professional persona speaks for itself in regards to the experience of my customers with the business and the teas we offer. My personal persona is one that you are experiencing through various online context, in this thread and the aforementioned reddit thread. Ultimately I have no wish to hide that. Of course I know it effects whether or not people like me. I guess I don’t really care if some people don’t like me. If you don’t want to try the teas we offer because I “crudely mocked” Verdant then you could miss out on some great unique teas that only we offer. It’s never been my intention to make YS a mainstream/mass market tea company. Our teas are small quantity and they sell really well year and year out. Some people are going to jive with the teas and not even care about whether or not they can imagine themselves being friends with me. Other people have to feel they like their tea seller and that they are someone they would really like and admire. If I’m not giving you that feeling there is nothing I can do about that short of being fake. Being fake is something alot of people are really good at, especially business people. I don’t think it’s a “cop out” to say that to me being fake or duplicitous is an abhor-able way to live ones life, even for a business person. Remember I sell tea leaves, I’m not working in HR or in a hospitality industry. My customers know that they get great tea for a very fair price. If there are problems I always take care of them. Again, I humbly accept your criticism, and hope that you can see things from my perspective as well.

@Yunnan Sourcing – I’m sorry that the experience has been draining on you; that certainly was not my intent. I’ve enjoyed your insight and the knowledge you bring to the table, as well as, shedding light on this. I have learned a lot because of this issue. I doubt I will be in Kunming or Bend Oregon any time soon, but I will take you up on the offer to learn more about tea in person! Cheers and best of luck with you and your company. I hope there are no hard feelings from my comments.

@Tea In Spoons – No I get where you are coming from. I am still open to learning and growing. You are very welcome to visit. Typically I am in Yunnan from March to May and then September-October, the rest of the time in Oregon. Typically I am more available when in Oregon because when I am in Yunnan I am roving around the tea mountains looking for tea and can’t be kept to a schedule. ;-)

What is happening here is tone policing. It is a great way to maintain the status quo and browbeat the messenger into silence.

I would far rather have someone be a little snarky who tells me the truth than the most polite and proper person telling me lies. Sadly, all tone policing does is make it safer for the person telling the lies.

DoF, I’m pretty sure the tone-policing argument doesn’t apply in this situation, since Scott is representing a business and not speaking about his experience as a member of a marginalized demographic.

Also, you’re invoking the false dichotomy of crude truth versus polite lies again – there’s no reason Scott can’t tone it down and save jokes about women’s underwear for when he’s having a beer with his friends. His defense of his behavior is almost identical to what Frank (former owner of 52teas) would say after running his mouth online, and I believe his business suffered for it. Downplaying certain aspects of your personality in certain settings is not “being fake”, and equating the two is a cop-out. Like it or not, Scott, those Reddit posts were made through an account with Yunnan Sourcing’s name on it, so it became part of your professional persona.

Finally, I don’t need to think the person who sells me tea is a demigod who walks on air. I do, however, want them to listen to customer feedback: when somebody says they’ve said or done something objectionable, it reflects much better on them to think about it and say “my bad, I won’t do it again” than to perform the “I just gotta be me” song and dance.

I’m usually not one to feed those types of comments but @Adagiobreeze your tone of self righteousness leaves me no choice. I’ll try to be brief. At the end of the day, you can say all you want, Scott’s business isn’t gonna suffer from him saying “I just gotta be me”. If he lost a few clients, he gained way more by staying true to himself. He said stuff and he owns it, I applaud. He had the balls to show up for it. But where has David been?
I’ve read all your replies and you’ve said things that are no better than what you are so offended by. Heck, I’ll take a woman panties joke over that any day cause at least it’s funny. Yes, I think woman underwears jokes can be funny, even coming from a business owner!!!! OMG SPANK ME!!!

My place, I have truly been put in it.

(Posting again here cause previously posted in wrong window)
@JC, I should have done this before, but my nerves were solicited elsewhere. Like many, I’ve been reading this thread all along. I want to thank you for the outspoken person that you are. You’re replies were always well positioned and based on facts. You know what you are talking about, and you defend you ideas and point of views admirably. Thank you for keeping it real and for feeding the thread with substance.

TheTeaFairy, I just realized you were tone policing me :)